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Hvad foregår der i studierne

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18 feb 2018 16:36 - 18 feb 2018 16:36 #8822 af Kaj.
Besvaret af Kaj. på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
@Kjeldsen

Trådens overskrift kan tolkes forskelligt, som du selv antydede i dit første indlæg. Men uanset hvordan jeg vender kikkerten, kan jeg ikke lige få øje på køen, der er villig til fortælle ”the true story” bag det der foregår. Eller bare fortælle noget. Lidt, til en start.

Er det ikke resultatet, der kommer ud af det, kvaliteten i formidlingen af musikken, som viser hvad der i virkeligheden foregår?
Sidste redigering: 18 feb 2018 16:36 ved Kaj..

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18 feb 2018 22:36 #8823 af Kjeldsen
Besvaret af Kjeldsen på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
I selve studiet sidder der som oftest nogle meget veluddannede og kompetente teknikere og producere. Det de frembringer er ikke tilfældigt. Det udstyr de bruger er heller ikke tilfældigt. I mastering processen kan der ødelægges meget ift hi-fi. Men det er så heller ikke formålet - desværre. Andre igen har til formål at mastre skånsomt og det er jo skønt for nogen som os

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19 feb 2018 04:49 - 19 feb 2018 05:44 #8824 af Kaj.
Besvaret af Kaj. på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Det er ikke mit indtryk at en musikproduktion frembringes efter tilfældighedsprincippet. Formålet er at tjene penge. Med udstyr justeret til målgruppen. Virkelighedens arbejdsgiver. Den kendsgerning er man nødt til at indrette sig efter. Og i den verden fylder audiofile med hang til nydelse af nørdede detaljer i musikproduktionen ikke meget. Så vi må nøjes med svipserne hvor man glemte at trykke på knapperne til de elektroniske overgreb, man kan udsætte stemmer og instrumenters natur for.



Link til 1807 sider relateret til emnet.
Sidste redigering: 19 feb 2018 05:44 ved Kaj..

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19 feb 2018 07:08 #8825 af Kjeldsen
Besvaret af Kjeldsen på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Det er ikke svipsere når vi får gode produktioner. Der findes meget der lider under at det skal lyde godt på små afspillere med små højttalere i støjfyldte miljøer. Men, der findes også musikere og producere som selv bestemmer. Dem er der skam mange af.

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19 feb 2018 09:03 - 19 feb 2018 09:05 #8826 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Og, selv, hvis formålet, med en indspilning, er autentisk lyd (hi-fi), må der manipuleres en del med lyden.
Jeg ikke sikker på, violin ville fremstå naturligt, i stuen hjemme hos folk, hvis den var optaget helt straight, uden der var "tryllet" i studiet.
Sidste redigering: 19 feb 2018 09:05 ved nv.

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19 feb 2018 17:50 #8829 af Miki
Besvaret af Miki på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne

nv skrev: Og, selv, hvis formålet, med en indspilning, er autentisk lyd (hi-fi), må der manipuleres en del med lyden.
Jeg ikke sikker på, violin ville fremstå naturligt, i stuen hjemme hos folk, hvis den var optaget helt straight, uden der var "tryllet" i studiet.


Kan du uddybe.

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19 feb 2018 18:15 #8830 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Støttemikrofoner, filtrering af støj o.lign.
(f.eks to mikrofoner der aftegner rummets dybde og bredde, og tredje mikrofon der aftegner violin i rummet.)
Skal poste, hvis jeg falder over noget konkredet fra nettet.

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19 feb 2018 21:29 #8831 af Kjeldsen
Besvaret af Kjeldsen på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Et par gode mikrofoner i kryds og et vellydende rum med god klang. Mere skal der såmænd ikke til. Støjfiltrering mv er ikke nødvendigt.

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19 feb 2018 23:04 - 19 feb 2018 23:43 #8832 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Støttemikrofoner omk trommer, betyder trommer kan mixes ind efter lyst.
En lille kuriøsitet:
Pladen "Jazz at the pawnshop", blev indspillet af en "puplikumèr", der placerede to mikrofoner foran scenen, og optog koncerten.
Flyglet stod bagerst på scenen, og lyden derfra, er mere eller mindre opløst i rummet, da den når mikrofonen. Derfor den "bigsound"-flygel. Med støttemikrofon ved flygel, kunne en mere punktlig placering af flygel, være opnået.
Under alle omstændigheder, fin optagelse for "piratplade" (ha-ha)
ps.
Det skal måske lige nævnes, det siges, der var en støttemikrofon på gulvet, ved siden af flyglet, men kablet var defekt.
Sidste redigering: 19 feb 2018 23:43 ved nv.

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20 feb 2018 06:00 - 20 feb 2018 09:35 #8834 af Kaj.
Besvaret af Kaj. på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Optagelsen og din beskrivelse af den er et fint eksempel på betydningen af instrumenternes overtoner. Forsvinder de på vejen fra instrumentet på optagestedet til lytteren foran højttalerne derhjemme forbliver optagelsen en ambient fjern oplevelse.

I det øjeblik anlæggets komponenter - hele signalkæden optimeres - oplever man "at træde indenfor i lokalet". Det er oplevelsen jeg stræber efter. Hver gang jeg finder ny musik eller "piller lidt ved elektronikken".

Metaforen. Billedet på oplevelsen. Forskellen mellem at se en koncert på TV og selv sidde i koncertsalen. Eller som her opleve livemusik på en hyggelig restaurant.

Edit: Når nu vi er i gang med at evaluere hvad der foregår i studierne, så prøv at lytte til f. eks. nummeret "Barbados" på originaludgivelsen og 2014 remasteret versionen. Det akustiske nærvær og ægthed er forsøgt erstattet med tydeliggørelse af de enkelte instrumenter.

Og for yderligere rode rundt i hvad der foregår. Se dette link.
Sidste redigering: 20 feb 2018 09:35 ved Kaj..

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20 feb 2018 10:05 #8835 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Mener også toppen fik et løft, hvis overtonerne skulle bevares i gengivelsen "der hjemme".

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20 feb 2018 10:40 #8836 af Miki
Besvaret af Miki på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne

nv skrev: Mener også toppen fik et løft, hvis overtonerne skulle bevares i gengivelsen "der hjemme".


Mener du at du hævede de øvre frekvenser for det pågældende instrument/spor eller gav du det samlede resultat et løft ved de høje frekvenser.

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20 feb 2018 13:59 #8837 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Det samlet resultat.

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20 feb 2018 19:14 #8839 af Miki
Besvaret af Miki på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne

nv skrev: Det samlet resultat.


Fint at se noget virke uden at det er 100% politisk korrekt.

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21 feb 2018 11:03 - 21 feb 2018 11:04 #8840 af nv
Besvaret af nv på emne Hvad foregår der i studierne
Miki, helt enig.
Læg mærke til det outdateret, men YDERST vellydende udstyr, der benyttes under indspilning, i indlægget under.
(ked af det fylder så meget, men ved ikke hvordan jeg laver links)

JAZZ AT THE PAWNSHOP - AN AUDIOPHILE CLASSIC

When recording engineer Gert Palmcrantz was loading his car with equipment outside Europa Film Studios on December 6th, 1976, it was only to make one of many recordings. No one knew then that it was to become a cult recording among audiophiles and one of the most appreciated jazz recordings ever made.

Palmcrantz put the equipment in the car and drove off to Stampen, the jazz club in Old Town of Stockholm. It was far from the first time he recorded at Stampen. The club, named after a pawn-brokers' shop which used to be in that block, opened in 1968. That same year, Gert was there to make a recording of, amongst others, the clarinettist Ove Lind, the vibraphonist Lars Erstrand and the drummer Egil Johansen. He was subsequently to meet the latter two again at Stampen's small stage, together with saxophonist Arne Domnérus, pianist Bengt Hallberg and bass-player Georg Riedel. Palmcrantz knew them well from before.

It wasn't particularly cold and there was no snow, despite it being the beginning of December. Palmcrantz arrived in good time in order to get everything ready before the band started to play at around nine that evening.

All those who have visited Stampen know that the ceiling is about four metres high and that the venue houses around 80 people. The stage was placed in the right-hand corner seen from the entrance, and so small that it only just carries a grand piano and a small band. Palmcrantz rigged the main microphone pair facing the stage, about two metres above the floor. These microphones were Neumann U47 cardioids, spaced 15-20 cm and inclined at an angle of 110-135 degrees.

This ORTF stereo technique - named after the French radio which introduced this simplified dummy head technique at the beginning of the sixties - was, according to Palmcrantz, the best method for optimal stereo effect and spatiality.

- Real stereo effect can only be achieved by placing the microphones in a similar way to the disposition of the ears.

Such a pair stood in front of the stage at Stampen and another pair was placed to the right of the stage, facing the audience in order to recreate the right "live" feeling. Some auxiliary supporting microphones were also necessary. One microphone was placed next to the grand piano standing on the right-hand side of the platform with its lid open, and Palmcrantz hung two cardioid Neumann KM56s over the drums on the left side of the stage. The bass, standing in the middle, and connected to a little combo amplifier on a chair, was supported by a Neumann M49, also in omnidirectional mode. The microphone was placed in such a way that it caught sound both from the instrument and from the amplifier's loudspeaker. The electric amplification of the acoustic bass is particularly noticeable in the song In a Mellow Tone, where there is a slight distortion.

Once the microphones were set out, all that was needed was to connect them all up. In those days there were no multi-cables, so Gert Palmcrantz had to lead all the eight cables from the stage, past the bar and through the kitchen to a little nook between a refrigerator and a pile of beer-crates where he had built his makeshift studio: a Studer mixer, two Dolby A 361 noise reduction units and two Nagra IV recorders which he used alternately since the seven-inch reels only lasted for 15 minutes at 38 cm/second. He rose the U47 microphones slightly in the treble. The audition was made through two old Ampex monitor loudspeakers with built-in amplifiers.

Gert Palmcrantz has described how it sounded when he later listened through the first test reel:

"Following a few test tones there is a trial run of an almost empty room. The clattering of chairs and tables and clinking glass emerge in almost three dimensional stereo. I have just rigged my faithful U47s above the stage and put a test reel on the tape recorder. I mutter something about a broken wire to the piano mike on the right, swearing as my finger is caught in the mike stand by the drums, and I order a beer in advance.

Then there is a commotion at the other end and I recognize Egil Johansen's contagious laughter as he and Arne Domnérus come bursting in, kidding each other amiably as they approach the stage. Various ceremonies take place and Arne quips at me. "Well, here we go again. So, nothing escapes you - thank God! Ha-ha-ha!" A hubbub ensues. The audience has arrived in high spirits. On stage you can hear Bengt Hallberg running his fingers over the keys, Egil Johansen tightening the skins and Georg Riedel plucking the bass. The smell of smoked sausage and foaming beer, blending with that of the more familiar scent of sour wine corks and detergent, lingers over the sound image. "Dompan" (Arne Domnérus) kicks off Over the Rainbow and the audience simmers down to an approving murmur."

No soundcheck or balance test were actually made. Once the quartet had started playing, Palmcrantz quickly had to set the levels as precisely as possible. After two tunes he had managed to achieve the right balance.

Gert Palmcrantz taped one song after the other, alternating recorders towards the end of each quarter of an hour so that he could join the tunes that were played in-between tapes. It is interesting to note how accomplished the musicians are, since everything could be recorded in one go without any cuts. There is one exception, however: at the end of one of his drum solos, Egil Johansen happened to miss a beat and messed up his entry slightly. Gert Palmcrantz cut that bar out and those who want to can amuse themselves by trying to find this almost imperceptible cut.

Otherwise, Gert Palmcrantz let the music flow freely and hardly touched the dials at all - no gain riding, simply small adjustments were made for solos or when the applause from the audience became too loud. The result was about two and a half hours worth of taped music every night.

The second night, the band was joined by vibraphonist Lars Erstrand.

- He arrived earlier than the others to have time to set up his instrument, remembers Palmcrantz.

Lars Erstrand was testing his vibraphone only to find that one of the fans was squeaking. Palmcrantz had to go and find a bottle of cooking oil in the kitchen for Erstrand to lubricate the spindle.

Then the rest of the band arrived and the recording could begin, practically with the same arrangement of microphones as the previous evening. The difference was that the stage was a little more crowded this time, as can be heard in comparison. Lars Erstrand popped in to the control room to check the sound of the vibraphone.

After the recording, the original tapes were edited to a double LP by Gert Palmcrantz in collaboration with the musicians and the producer Jacob Boëthius. The sound quality of this record soon won the reputation of being remarkably fine, much to the surprise of Palmcrantz and the musicians who thought their earlier recordings were just as good. Something, however, must have been just right these evenings, and one mustn't forget that skilful, imaginative, sensitive and inspirated musicians are absolute requirements for a recording to rise from "good" to "excellent". Palmcrantz' microphone technique transmits Bengt Hallberg's subtle touch, Arne Domnérus' characteristic tone and Egil Johansen's distinctive drumming - and all instrumentalists are presented in a sound image that is both intimate and airy.

On really good equipment you can hear people eating, the clinking of cutlery against the plates or conversations round the small circular tables. Here and there, among the chink of glasses and the rattling of the till, you can clearly hear the musicians talking, difficult to understand for listeners who don't speak Swedish. "What's the tempo?" someone asks before Limehouse Blues, followed by the comment "The first tempo; normal tempo", demonstrated by foot-tapping. After I'm confessin', a jolly man in the audience exclaims "Hey! That was a good old song!". Sometimes you can hear other music in the background - that of another jazz band playing in the basement below, the so called Gamlingen (Oldie). There are undoubtedly many details to be discovered here!
Sidste redigering: 21 feb 2018 11:04 ved nv.

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